Where Do We Go After We Die_ Man’s PRE-Birth Offers a Glimpse! Christian Sundberg

At the beginning of this life, I attempted to reject it and fight my way out before I was even born because I was like, "I'm not doing this. This is freaking crazy. Low vibration, being physical. I don't like this. I'm not doing this." And I had similarly rejected a preceding incarnation attempt. This is so beyond language, and it's so deep and so personal, but I remember the whole of all that is—the "I," the great "I AM"—coming to me.

This is Christian Sundberg on Your Superior Self. Christian, my man, this has been a long time coming. I feel like we've been working years to get this thing to happen. So, thank you for taking the time. Sure, I'm honored to come on the show, sir. Thank you. I know your life is hectic. You've written a book and done a million podcasts, but how is today going for you? Yeah, I'm rich in the human experience, deep in it, doing the day-to-day American human thing right now. It can be demanding at times, but yeah, I'm living a rich and full life. Life is good.

So, are you still... I guess my question is this: You've written about your pre-birth experience. You've basically gone out and made this public, speaking about who we are, what we experience, our true nature. How has work been for you? Like, your professional life—has that changed at all? How do people treat you now? Yeah, that's a really great question. So, I've chosen to attempt to pursue a standard mainstream work life at the same time in order to support my family.

And it is probably the biggest challenge, practically speaking, in my life because my perception of reality is probably not standard. And because authenticity is very important to me, there are sometimes I feel like being fully authentic is difficult in the workplace. But I still do pursue that. I think it's important to represent and be there. Spirituality is not about just going off necessarily into the woods. It's okay if you do that too, but being present within the mainstream activity that we do every day as humans—that's important too. So, I do try to do that, and it is sometimes a challenge for me.

Sure. Now, your pre-birth experience was a remembering, almost. It's funny because you and I are fans of Tom Campbell's work, and it was his work that kind of sent you down this journey into exploring through meditation. You did some long-form meditations that ultimately resulted in you having your experience, your pre-birth memory. Was that an out-of-body experience, or was that during the meditation? Neither. So, when I took up a meditation practice, I wasn't expecting any kind of outcome. In fact, that's very important in meditation—not to have any expectation but simply to go see what you are, what consciousness is underneath all the thinking.

So, I did that for a number of months, and after a few months, I had my first non-physical experience, which was very eye-opening. It kind of propelled me to keep going down this path. And then, sometime later—I don't know exactly when, maybe before a year, maybe a few months after the non-physical experience—the non-physical experiences had continued. But what was more, to your point, is the pre-birth memory was just there. It wasn't like all of a sudden there was a grand opening of the gates or something. It was just...

I was aware that it was there. I don't know how else to describe it. It was like someone had blown leaves off the ground, and I just mentioned it to some people near me, like, "Oh my goodness, I remember existing before this life. I remember choosing this life." It was just so normal. It wasn't strange. In fact, it was the more normal thing. It was like, once my state of awareness had reached that place, it was the more normal thing. It wasn't like this huge, shocking epiphany. It was more like, "Oh, now this is actually the strange thing—the human experience." And that was just something I experienced that was very dear and personal to me, very personal. And it was just there. So, I'd be walking around, doing daily activities, thinking on it, reflecting on it, and feeling the presence of the veil right now because that's part of it—the awareness of the presence of the limitations and consciousness that we wear in order to be physical.

So, yeah, can you feel the veil right now?

Yes, sir. What does that feel like? You tell me. You're also veiled. We're all veiled. You've had the experience. I'm still... No, no, we're all veiled. So, we all... I mean, I guess I'm just saying... I'm being a little facetious, but I'm just saying that because we all know what it's like to be human, and the veiling is just the... It's like a cloak of constraints that we wear on and in consciousness in order to have the human experience. So, for me, it's very difficult to describe it, but I can feel it like a cloak that maybe is worn on and in my awareness.

The metaphor I like to use is... You know those police shows, the cop shows where someone's in the interrogation room, like a glass wall, and the cops can see in, but the person in the room can't see out? It feels like that. Like, I can see the glass. I can feel the glass. I can't see past it, but I know I can feel it there. In fact, sometimes I really am pressed up against it. I feel it. It's very hard to describe this because it's not a visual experience. It's something that is being worn within the body of my awareness right now.

So, you're the guy in the interrogation room that's being interrogated in the metaphor?

Yes. Simply meaning, who's on the other side of that glass? The guides? Yeah, our non-physical friends who watch and help from the other side. We have quite a cast. So, the play here on Earth is not attended to just by the physical players—not just by you and I. It's also attended to by many, many who are not physically incarnated as we are but yet participate, you could say, remotely—maybe like a support cast. I don't know, pretty limited metaphor. But the guides that help us from that side through watching over us and providing nudges and subtle guidance so that we still have the full ability to make the free will choices from the standpoint of the human perspective.

Are they benevolent?

Oh, yes, yes, yes, definitely. So, I don't... I'm sure you're in this world of speaking to people about spirituality, so you hear all the conspiracy theories. But recently, I've come to hear more of the "reincarnation is a trap" concept, right? Like, and you had a pre-birth experience. Did you ever feel like you're being tricked into coming back here? No. I feel very strongly about that.

That whole viewpoint—I disagree with it. It is not at all what I experienced. And I think what happens is, here on Earth, we buy into a perception of powerlessness. You know, we learn the limitations of Earth, and one of the chief things that we experience here is deception or being used for something. And so, since that's our experience here, we tend to take that and kind of force it up, impose it back up the ladder: "Oh, now the whole human experience is... I'm trapped here, and this was... I'm being used."

Even in the... No, no, no, no. That's not at all how it is. The spirit is completely sovereign. You know, the soul is a piece of the source. It's a drop in the ocean. It has ultimate power and knowledge and authority. So, it's not like there can be a deception. And it's not like... How do I put this? The viewpoint from which the decision is made is very full. And then, the decision to incarnate has to very much be personal, and it has to be a surrendering of one's own power because there's no authority greater than source, and you're a part of source.

So, what can lock you away other than you? You see? And that process is done very much intentionally because the opportunity of the physical incarnation is seen. It's an incredible opportunity. It's like winning the lottery. It's such a huge opportunity. And so, there is a voluntary surrender to the veil, a surrender into that process, and that is done with full knowing and voluntarily. So, I very much do not resonate with the idea of a soul trap.

I mean, I agree with that. Like, if I was going to fool myself into thinking that I was a human, I would have to create a veil, right? Like, if I am source coming into this reality, like, who is this infinite being? You would have to trick it, right? I mean, to think that it was a human being, right? And the veil is very deceptive, in my opinion, right? Like, I don't... I haven't had an awakening experience, so I haven't experienced a non-physical or a pre-birth or anything like that. I've had some pretty righteous meditations. However, there's always this elusiveness of these visions, right?

Like, I remember some things as far as like lessons that feel right in my body, like, "Okay, that makes sense to me. I can get with that theory or whatever because that really feels true to my being." But to think that God comes into this... Maybe I don't know if you said that or not, but like, we as source come into this reality... Like, how much fun would the video game be if we knew that we were that, right? Like, you have to trick itself into thinking that it was not that so that way it could have an experience. If that makes sense.

Yeah, that's true, but I want to be careful. You mentioned that the veil was like a deception. I don't... It would be like saying that when you sit down to play a video game, you're deceiving yourself. Well, you know, you can think of it that way if you'd like, but I don't think it's an accurate representation. It is definitely an obscuring of the full knowing of what we are—intentionally, right?

A constraint. It is a significant constraint. So, I shouldn't say "deception," like deceiving itself, but more or less like a constraint so it doesn't know itself as that, right? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. A significant constraint that we wear so that we can have the perspective of just being the human. And that is the opportunity—actually being... I mean, we're not actually human, but we feel like we're actually human. Man, we've come all the way. We're pushing the limits here. And that is the name of the game, though, you see—just to really lose yourself and immerse yourself in that local perspective and then make choices.

You see? And then have a context in which you get to make choices and respond every day from that perspective. And then, when you expand back out, now you've actually had that perspective. Now, you've actually been a human. I actually know what it's like to be cold or hungry or shameful or powerless. I actually know what it's like. Then again, that counterpressure to make choices that might be difficult at the time—you know, that's something that is only possible through the offering of the contrast, you see, of the veiled, limited perspective. It's precisely that limitation that provides the offering of the intense contrast.

I love that. So, I'm going to ask you on record: Who are we? Yeah, well, "who are we" is beyond language. It's one of my favorite questions, but it can't be answered with words. But the closest thing we can say is that we are consciousness itself, spirit itself, and that we are multi-dimensional beings of love and peace and freedom and joy. That is our true nature. Wow. Our true nature is love and joy, and we are so creative and so powerful and so free that we even have the opportunity and the choice to... What if we veil ourselves super deeply into being this physical thing? What if we do that? That's how free we are. But we are still multi-dimensional.

You know, we seem to have really lost ourselves here because we've really taken this experience to the far end of the spectrum when it comes to experiencing separation. Separation is a non-native experience. It's a non-native state. We're not actually separate from each other or from the whole ever, but we've really pushed the boundaries to see how far we can experience separation—like, how deep can we go? You know, how far can we push the envelope? That's what we're doing. That's what we're doing right now. We're really pushing that envelope to see how deep we can have that experience. And that is one heck of an adventure done by that multi-dimensional self, you know—the true you.

Do you think we live in a virtual reality? Yes, in the sense that the form of the physical experience is non-fundamentally real. Yes, this is a virtual reality. It's a real experience. You know, I'm looking at my computer monitor right now. I can see you. You can see me. We're experiencing form, sight, and sound and thoughts and touch. And you know, that's a real experience, but it's a little bit like... You know, if you go to sleep at night and you have a dream, when you wake up in the morning, no one has to prove to you that the dream wasn't fundamentally real. It's just obvious. But you had a dream experience. You know, you had an experience, and you might even wake up changed because, "Wow, you had a dream.

That was an interesting dream." The physical is like that. It's like a very deep, deep dream, but it's still only but a dream. You know, even distance... It's physical, like all the physical context. You could think of it like Minecraft, a video game, where we're experiencing distance, we're experiencing places, we're experiencing up and down and left and right and hot and cold. But all of that is a virtual creation of an environment that's occurring within consciousness, within that which is actually real.

So, when you had your awakening, did all this information flow to you? Like, just did all that—what you just said—right? Like, because I don't know what Christian was like before. I'm learning more about you now. Like, would the Christian prior to this experience state things like that? No, I would not have stated things like that at all. At the time, up until the age of 30, I had something of a mainstream Lutheran belief system.

As I had these experiences and began to awaken, I really had to challenge my belief system, and I had to be very humble and acknowledge how very little I actually knew. You know, because belief is a powerful thing. The ego—one of its chief tools is belief. Just grab on to something to believe in. Now, I feel better, you know, because I really don't know. This is a move in the direction of the fact that you don't know. This is a move in the direction of what you actually are experiencing, what you actually are feeling. So, it's difficult to answer your question because then that coming to know what we really are automatically arises with...

This is so hard to describe. It's like when we touch consciousness, you could say, when we really get in touch with what the substance of what we really are, the true nature of being rises up and is known in a very tangible, deep, rich way. And it can be felt in such a way that even the entire physical experience can be felt like...

There's this... I don't want to stimulate the ego too much because it sounds exciting, but there's this inversion point where, if you go deep enough into consciousness, all of a sudden, the physical world—this is very hard to describe—can be felt as occurring within you, and you are actually non-local and much, much, much bigger than the physical. And the physical is like down here in this tiny little thing, and your body is down here within you. You know, because right now, we feel like we're sitting in a body, looking at some eyeballs. Sure. Yeah, I mean, I feel like... Yeah, I feel like this is my body, right?

Yeah, but actually, the body is an experience, not a thing. It's an experience happening within your consciousness. And when you unfold, there is a bliss of being, and then what I just described is felt and known. I don't know how else to describe it. And there are layers of being, you could say—reality layers above this one. For instance, I've had experiences where I'm in a state of being where...

Like, I was in a room, and this woman said something about China, and I saw her thought. I know this sounds nuts, but I could perceive, see, and hear the pitch—yes, it had a pitch—of her thought reaching around the world and touching China and having an effect on it because there's like this...

I'm not real big on terms, but like, there's this astral realm or something. There's this layer of reality before ours that's thought-responsive and thought-driven, and it gives rise to the physical. And I'm just saying that reality system is perceivable. So, it's within being, and it's actually a real place, you could say. The astral realm is a real place that exists. Yeah, I'm so careful with words because I don't want to label this or that layer of reality. I'm no expert. I know certain out-of-body explorers with lots of experience, like Bob Monroe and Tom Campbell, that we've talked about.

You know, they've gone to some lengths to label some of these systems. Bob Monroe has acronyms and things too. I'm not careful about doing that. I just know that there are these layers of reality that are very real. In fact, some of these reality systems that can be experienced are like far more real and lucid than this.

It'd be like going to an IMAX movie theater and then coming out and watching a black-and-white television, and people are saying, "Well, how do you know that was real?" Well, I mean, goodness gracious, if this black-and-white TV is real, and that's freaking real, it's that deep and rich and full of vibrance and color and... Again, I'm not trying to quantify it because it's not just one system. You know, the other side is an extremely complex, multi-layered...

Well, you've made some really good metaphors. You've stated before where you're looking at a movie screen, right? And then you can change your attention and go look at another movie. Or maybe the movie screen is always there, but you're changing movies, right? Like, if you're changing your awareness into a different reality, like, you can see a different version of yourself in a different movie. If that makes sense, have you been able to do that? Not so much voluntarily.

I had a few voluntary experiences, but for the most part, involuntarily, yes. That arises for me where I will be perceiving another reality frame—sometimes when my body is asleep, sometimes when I'm in meditation. But yeah, it is like what you describe where there's a... The movie screen is your awareness itself, your consciousness itself. And then... I love Tom Campbell's language. Tom Campbell has done a huge service by providing some language for us—so, metaphors.

And you know, what he says is your consciousness receives a data stream. I love that metaphor. It's like a radio that's getting a wavelength, like a radio signal, a channel. And the radio doesn't actually go anywhere. The radio just shifts the channel that it's receiving. That's a good analogy for what happens within consciousness. It's just that here, we are really, really, really focused typically—really focused into the physical.

Typically, we're like staring hard at it. In fact, there's this great Seth quote—I don't remember the exact words—but it's something like, "Physical reality is like a bright point of light that you just never look away from." And that very much is my experience. And then, what happens is, the more you look at it—because we're veiled—see, one of the things the veil does is it helps us to stay focused within it, right?

The more we look at it, which means the more we pay attention to our thoughts and to the sense data and to all the stimulating story of this human character, the deeper we get wrapped into it. And so, meditation is the act of stepping away, putting it down. It's just putting down what you're not. That may be very difficult to start because you have so much momentum built up—so much thought momentum and association momentum with the form. But it's okay.

You know, you put that down, and you take a step back towards your own consciousness for what it is—no expectation. Just go see, go investigate consistently every day: What is? What am I when there's no object, just the "I"? And feel it. And then, that is inadvertently looking away from this radio channel by looking into the now of consciousness itself.

Well, that's like the aperture almost to the awareness, you know? Yes, very much. Yeah, very much. Because what happens is, when you put down the thought, you're no longer... You're not... See, okay, so when you have a thought, you are the being who is having the thought. So, if you have the thought, "I'm hungry for a sandwich," at that moment, you are the being who's hungry for the sandwich.

That's what you are. You're not everything else. You're the "hungry for the sandwich" guy right now. So, when you put down that thought and all other thoughts, and you're alert, what happens is you've simply put down that which you're not, which is like letting go metaphorically. If you're in a movie theater, instead of watching the screen, now you've turned your attention toward yourself in the seat.

And then, suddenly, it may arise to you on its own: "Oh my gosh, I'm in the seat. I'm not in this. I'm not in the movie. I'm in the seat. Wow, I was taking that movie really seriously." Yeah, that's awesome, right? Because you, the awareness... There is a difference between consciousness and awareness. I think I use the terms pretty interchangeably, but some do draw a distinction.

I don't like to distinguish because I think it's important to not draw distinctions when it comes to the substance of that which is knowing because that's thinking, and that's what we're trying to get away from, right? Like, well, thought form, right? Like, what you said earlier previously about the thought form—seeing the thought form and it going to China and having an effect on China—I thought was very fascinating. So, when we have thoughts, they can affect other people, right? Like, so when we're planning out our day, it's essentially having an effect on the day to come.

Yeah, and I want to draw a distinction here because, while I'm speaking to the thought, the impetus behind the thought is actually your intention. So, the active ingredient is the intention, not the thought itself. The thought is more like a rock, and a rock can be thrown this way or that way with different quality, you know what I mean? So, the quality of your intention is what's reaching out and touching someone else.

So, not to get down a tangent, but as an example, that's why prayer is sometimes effective. You know, I don't want to overgeneralize, but I just mean that if you have a focused intention of love and compassion, and you really want to help that person, and you just focus on that, it's not so much the words you say in your mind or out loud. It's more your focused intention that is producing an effect. And so, we do that with our thoughts all day long. We don't know. Like, we get lost.

Our intention even gets lost because we just end up repeating these same thoughts over and over all day long. But are we doing that out of love or fear? You know, are we doing that just unconsciously, or do we regain consciousness? You see, because a lot of the ego's activity is unconscious. We've just fallen asleep into thinking and doing and thinking and thinking and doing and associating and... "I'm this story," and... Just pause and step back and return to alertness. And in that, there is a great strength that returns because then you can much more intentionally wield the intention—much more consciously and with greater awareness wield the intention.

Sure. Now, your thought... When you had your pre-birth remembering, did you still feel like Christian? Like, did you feel like that awareness, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. So, that's a good question because your question assumes that I'm Christian. So, what I mean is... The better way to put it is, did I feel like myself? Yes, more myself, actually—more myself because who you are is not the human character. Who you are is you—like, the "you" that feels like you. When you really go within yourself and you feel, "Who am I really?" You know, that quality of being, that precious "I"—that's just you. That no one else is that.

That "you," that precious you—that's who you are. Okay? So, when you return to a state that precedes a form association, the knowing of that "I" is very deep and rich and real. And then, from that, you realize, "Oh my gosh, all the association is actually less me." You know, like, being the human. So, you might think, "I'm the name." Well, not. You're not actually your name, but when we're associated into the forms of the human condition, then we've kind of bought into something that's alien in a way. And that's why a lot of near-death experiencers say they felt more like themselves after they had died when they come... You know, not less. You know, it wasn't like they had lost their who they are. They awakened to who they really are and realized that who they really are was having the human experience.

I love that. Speaking of aliens... Did I say aliens? Speaking of aliens, have you... Did you remember any lives that had to do with being in ET or any of that phenomena? I do have one memory of one life that was in a physical civilization that was very advanced and evolved, and it wasn't Earth. I don't have much memory of it, but that was me too. So, yeah, I know that sounds crazy. Just one, and it's just one, but I don't think it's as strange as it sounds. I think a lot of us have more than one type of experience. The soul is very rich and deep.

And what was different about that? Right? Can you name any distinctions between... Yeah, I can name a distinction. Yeah, sure. So, the human collective consciousness has a flavor, a quality. Okay? So, when we engage in the collective consciousness of a planet, of a race, as a participant, now we've taken on that vibration. So, like, let's... Okay, so here's a metaphor. So, think of the collective consciousness of humanity like a kindergarten class. And the kindergarten class is still learning how to not cut each other with scissors.

They have a lot of creativity, a lot of power, a lot of uniqueness. They've really created a really unique class, but it's kind of raucous and loud, and you know, that's kind of like the human collective consciousness. It's very valuable. Nothing wrong with it. There's nothing wrong with that. But then, so then your question is like, "Well, how does that compare to say a quiet college classroom where everybody's like maybe in their PhD studies?" You know, and you know what I'm saying?

Like, it just doesn't have the same feel. It's the simplest way to describe just using metaphors—a profound energetic difference in the quality of the energetic nature of the collective and of the species and of the biology because the biology itself also has a very unique set of... Like, the biology is worn as a set of constraints, and each biology has its own unique cognitive opportunity, you know? So, that's very unique per race and per opportunity for species.

So, if that civilization was very advanced, right? Like a college class, I'm assuming that they didn't have to speak words like we do, right? Like, telepathy maybe or communication in that way? Well, I don't know. In the case of that one experience, I don't know physically here or whatever reality system it was physical, but assuming it was in this reality system, I don't know how they communicated. But I will say that telepathy is our normal form of communication.

So, the more advanced we get... I don't want to make this sound like duality because it's hard to not make this sound dualistic, but we'll just say the more evolved we become and the closer we get to our true natures, the more natural telepathy is because telepathy is the natural form of communication because we are all one. We're all connected. So, it's only here in separation where...

Guess what? I got to throw sounds at you, and you got to hear the sounds, and you got to compare them to what you learned as a kid and compare it to your history and then throw some sounds back at me.

And then, I end up going to eight hours of meetings at my work all day talking to communicate a short amount of small amount of information. You know, because we're in... I'm just saying we're inefficient, you know, as humans in our communication method. Our true communication is very rich and full and complete. It's not clunky in small chunks of word, you know? It's feeling, knowing. It's full communication.

Yeah, wow. What about other lives here on this... In this world, in this reality, right? Like, any of them that influenced you? Like, right now, do they influence you? Do they still influence you right now in this reality right now? Yeah, so I'm aware of two experiences I had that are very much related to what I'm doing here today. And the reason I put it that way is it's not like those other lives are things that influence me. From my perspective, I had that experience.

I'm having this experience. It's still me. It's the same me. Doesn't really need a big distinction. It'd be a little bit like if somebody at the end of the week said, "You know, Monday night you did something. Did Monday night affect your Tuesday night?" I mean, you know, it does, but it's just you having all these experiences. So, in any case, in my case, the shared theme is that I came to this life to face and process a very, very low-vibration fear—a specific fear. And so, I'm aware of two other experiences I had in the physical where that same fear was present. And so, now I'm addressing, I guess you could say, the same energy, the same perspective, even though the context was very different.

So, as an example, in this life, the primary way that the fear manifested historically has been health crises that gave me the opportunity to experience a sense of inability to escape pain—like a physical agony that I couldn't escape. That was the opportunity here in this life to prompt fear. But in a previous life, I know one time I had an experience as a woman who had given birth.

I know this sounds wild. I'm sharing openly. I was a woman who had given birth, and the birth was very painful. And I was pregnant a second time, and I remember having the same fear because I knew the pain was coming. Like, I knew the pain of child labor was coming, and I couldn't escape it. So, it's the same thing of being unable to escape pain, though the context was very different.

So, when you were that woman, did you feel like her avatar? I mean, did you... Could you feel everything was just as real as you sitting here talking to me now?

Yes. From this perspective, I don't have full access to that because I'm quite veiled, but in the little bit that I have, yes, it's the same me just having an experience of being a physical woman. I remember certain aspects of the environment, but environment isn't really super important. What's most important is the experience itself. So, yes, it's the same level of reality, just like this seems super real. That's just how other experiences are, you know. And that fear, right?

Like, that you talked about... Like, that event, can you talk about that at all? Do you feel comfortable talking about that event in this life? Yeah, so the way it physically manifested was initially... So, I had health issues throughout my childhood. I had celiac disease and didn't know it—an autoimmune disease. And I had a heat stroke in Chongqing, China. I tried to move to China after college because I studied in Beijing in college. And I had a heat stroke in this hot city. I was in the hospital for four days, and they gave me bag after bag after bag of potassium over these four days.

And something about that incredible amount of potassium burned out my nervous system, caused this very terrible physical neurological pain that I could not escape from. Plus, my body wouldn't sweat for 11 months. So, instead of... So, whenever it was hot, I would just get sick. So, I was in extreme, extreme physical pain for weeks. So, that was physically the symptomology that it took. And the reason I say that is because, like, you know, we like to think... We like to talk about what happened to you, what action, where did you go, what physical thing.

But really, what we're all doing here is we're all having an experience. That's what's first. And when we have an experience, we respond differently to different experiences. We have our own unique quality of being, and we respond to each experience in unique ways, and we label them and apply meaning in unique ways. And all of that is what's really going on. It's not just so much... You know, you went to a place and had this experience.

So, in my case, physically, that's what happened. But inside myself, I was psychologically traumatized. At the time, I just divorced myself from myself just to escape this terrible pain. I had post-traumatic stress for a number of years. In fact, I didn't even have memory for a few years up until the age of 22. I basically remembered only tiny, spotty memory. I had almost no memory.

You know, talk about an opposite end of the spectrum. Yeah, until I really processed it through years of counseling and became a warrior of feeling, you know, because I relied on my intellect and on my accomplishments and all this stuff that didn't matter rather than actually going in and feeling what I really felt. And with guidance and help, I did that. I went in, layer after layer after layer—700 layers down—I processed what I was actually feeling in my body in the current moment, in the current moment—every emotion, every physical feeling, all the way down to that deep and horrific moment that was my ultimate deepest fear.

And I faced it, felt it, processed it. That's what I'm here to do, see? Because when we do that, it actually is extremely empowering. I don't want to go too far down this path, but when we go into the dark closet and face the monsters in there and actually feel everything we feel and allow the vulnerability that we really are and actually face our crap... Because this is not about new stories.

This is not about new actions because we tend to think, "Just tell me what story I could tell. Tell me what I can do. Tell me what action I can take to avoid my pain." No, you got to go into exactly how you experience life, really, for real—feel it all the way, even if it feels like it will destroy you. It won't. And then, because you were willing to see it and feel it, there is an expansion that takes place. It's freaking so powerful. There's a healing that can take place that we can only do here in this rigorous, dense place.

When you healed that, do you think you healed it in the other life as well? Yeah, so all the experiences are taking place in the one now. So, this is the simplest way to comment on that question: When you process something in this now, you're doing it for all your nows forever because all the forever nows are in one now. So, if you choose this now today to face your crap and feel your stuff and own who you are and really say yes to life again—stop rejecting now—when you do that in this now, you are doing it for all the nows, and you get to keep that now.

Now, do you think... Can you say that is similar to what karma is, right? Like, fear in that life, the fear in this life... Like, is there a karmic link?

Yes, absolutely. So, karma... Yes, karma is basically just a word for cause and effect. And basically, we are 100% responsible for who we are. That's the short version. You can't actually run from it. You can't actually hide. You know, in the big picture, if you have fear...

So, on the surface, it's if you have ego, and you've damaged others through egoic action, egoic belief, hurtful action... But really, underneath all that, the actual issue is fear. It's not really ego. Ego is just a symptom. It's part of yourself that's really trying to fix the damn problem. Fear is the real issue. So, if you have fear, you have fear. That's just how it is. So, if you have fear that you've actualized in a previous experience, "Oh, wow, guess what? You've done that."

So, now you can see, "Wow, that is a part of me." We could put it that way. And since it's a part of me, it is best if I now re-engage that part of me and heal it. You know, it's not that it's like a punishment system or something. No, it's just... You could say it's accountability, but it's more just like you are who you are, and the system of cause and effect that has been built within the great wisdom of source is perfect. It's excellent at, in the long run, allowing us to face ourselves and to grow towards love.

That's what all this is about. This is all about growing who we really are towards love past fear. Processing fear is synonymous with the growing of love because our true nature is love. So, all we have to do is work through the crap that we're not, you see, and then what we really are is strengthened and empowered. That's really what we're doing. So, karma is just a long... It's just an energetic physics, you could say, that helps us to ultimately face ourselves and to grow towards love.

Sure. Did you ever meet the "Big Cheese" that Tom Campbell talks about?

Not to my knowledge, no. Not to my knowledge. Did you ever have an experience with source? Yes. So, in my pre-birth experience, at the beginning of this life, I attempted to reject it and fight my way out before I was even born because I was like, "I'm not doing this. This is freaking crazy. Low vibration, being physical. I don't like this. I'm not doing this." And I had similarly rejected a preceding incarnation attempt.

And so, yes, I remember... It's so beyond language, and it's so deep and so personal, but I remember the whole of all that is—the "I," the great "I AM"—coming to me and expanding me back out while I was still physical and showing me all of what I still am. Like, by being veiled, I hadn't lost all that I am.

That's what I was reacting in fear to. It was like I was terrified that I had lost all that I am, and source expanded me back out and said, "This is still what you are. You can never not be this." And that was the most holy moment of my life, and the level of love and understanding is impossible to describe—a billion times bigger than the wisest, most loving thing we can imagine on Earth. It's unspeakable.

Do you still feel that right now?

I do feel it, and I try not to look too deeply into it because it makes me very homesick. I don't want to do that. No, it's okay. I feel homesick every day a little bit, but no, it's very... It's like the most... It's like the most what we are. So, while we think of it here, there is a pining, like, if we really connect to it, there's a pining homesickness that is profound. That's why a lot of near-death experiencers, after they come back—not that they're suicidal at all—but they just want to go back.

They want to die so they can go back. Nothing... You know what I mean? It's not... That's why I'm so passionate about sharing this. It's like, we may have different experiences and have different stories, but underneath it all, we are all love and peace and joy, and that is the truth. That is the real good news, and we got to remind each other while we're here, man.

No, I agree. I agree. People hear that... I don't... We use "love" so much. I don't think people fully understand what you mean by that, you know what I mean? Like, we use the word "love," but do we fully conceptually understand what that... What you're talking about? Yeah, no, we don't.

Yeah, no, that's a really good point. You know, love is just like the word that we have because we got like five words in English for like all these things. You could put it this way: All things are one. And so, the celebration of the unity of being—the because the other is you—so, celebrating the other... There's an element of celebration that we often miss.

Celebrating the other is... I don't... The words are so bad. It's just this profound, natural, most normal state of celebration and bliss that's really what we are. You know, we're not actually separate. We're not actually the small "woe is me" story. That's not who we are. Who we are is all that is. We are everything that's ever existed and more—the substance of life itself. Life itself is beautiful.

How can you describe that with it? And love is just the word that we use because, you know, here, that's the emotion we can feel. You know, like, the Greeks had what—seven or eight types of love or something? You know, friendship love, familial love, societal love, love between soldiers, and all these different loves. We just got one word: "love." But that's just a way that we... When we really feel a celebration of the other and a love for the other, and we just feel connected with them, that's just the word we use. Imagine that amplified. Our connection is so... It's so real. I don't know how else to describe it. It's just...

Do you think we can interact with that source now? Oh, yes. Like, consciousness is fundamental in this reality, and I believe that source is that consciousness that arises in everything. So, how do you... Everything arises in the consciousness. There you go. There you go. How do you cultivate a more intimate relationship? We've kind of already touched on it actually because a move back towards what you really are is cultivating a relationship with it. Now, I know that it sounds like...

People might say, "Well, that's like focusing on yourself." Well, no. The local self is not who you are. Who you really are is the whole, and the individuated you... You're both. There's not a paradox. You're the precious individuated you, and you always will be the individuated you, but you're also one with the whole. So, it's like you're a drop in the ocean. I love the Rumi quote: "You are not just a drop in the ocean. You are the mighty ocean in the drop."

Oh, God, I love that. So, then, to your question: How do we retouch the ocean? Everything is occurring in the water already. So, it's a little bit like saying, "How do we find water?" And you're asking me while we're in water, while we're standing here in water, and it's made of water. It's just really deeply folded into some perception of not water. It's like the fish metaphor, right? Yeah, the fish metaphor. Right. Yeah, I'm that fish, buddy. I could tell you that.

I think it's so important, right? Like, I mean, it's just so important to understand conceptually what and how we... What we are, right? Like, how do we come here? Why do we come here? What is the purpose of this life as a human being, right? Is it the experience? Is it because you chose your life here? From what you... Your past interviews, your book... Like, you chose this life as a Christian.

What about the people that choose lives that aren't what we would term "good," you know what I mean? Like, bad guys—the villains. Like, do they choose those lives?

All lives are chosen, but the question... It's not fair to assume that a given fear-based egoic pattern is an automatic assumption of a life. That's not necessarily true. Rather, what we sign up for is a context and a set of constraints. And then, we want to see how well we can do in there.

Now, our set of constraints here are off the charts. Like, we've got a biology that will literally die if you don't feed it in a couple of weeks. You know, we've got an evolutionary history where we physically kill and eat the bodies of other beings. Like, it's crazy. It's normal for us, but it's wild.

We have all these constraints—linear time, discrete location, all the momentum of our society, and all the "us versus them" thinking, and all the fear that we've enshrined in our organizations and in our family customs, and all... Anyway, we've got this whole thing that we've created, and there's a ton of limitation that has the opportunity to provoke fear. We come into that seeking to process and grow in love.

Now, sometimes, sometimes we may choose to sign up for a certain role to help someone else experience something they need. Okay? But that's not the same as saying we came here to do evil or cause damage. So, it's a very fine line because, from the spiritual perspective, the higher vantage point is seen, and the opportunity is seen, and it's seen that love is the name of the game—not damage, not fear.

And even these contexts that we sign up for that are very challenging—like, you know, signing up to live in a war-torn country or a country that has no food, so where starvation is likely—that may seem crazy to the ego, to the local portion of the self that's like, "No, there's no way." But the thing is, the soul knows it is absolutely immortal and powerful, and that all contrast is an opportunity for growth. And it is the strong souls who say, "You know what? I want to challenge.

I want to really get under there and lift that heavy weight." So, it's a little bit metaphorically like saying there are different weights that you could lift on a weight bench. Some lives might be...

This is just a crude metaphor, so forgive the rudeness, but some lives might be 20 pounds. I mean, the context—the societal context, the body context, the likely outcomes—maybe that's 20 pounds. Another life might be 200 pounds. So, then, the question is like, "Why would you ever lay down on a weight bench and actually lift 200 pounds? Why would you do that?"

Well, because the greater the weight, the greater the counterpressure of the circumstance, the greater the opportunity for the consciousness to choose how to meet it and refine through it and utilize it in a way that is facilitating the processing of fear and the growth towards love.

Even just having an experience of great limitation or lack, you see, is a gift because now the soul knows what it's like to have that perspective. Like, how else can you know what it's like to be, for instance, hungry unless you're hungry? And then, forever after that, "Wow, now you know." And now, that is like a...

Okay, this is hard to describe, but when I, before I ever incarnated, I came across a being who had inspired me to incarnate because the quality of his being was so rich and so beautiful. And I felt how deeply he had been physically damaged in a life—in a certain lifetime, he had been physically wounded, and he had a pain that lasted with him for years, and it was very hard on his everything—his emotional body, his physical body.

Okay, imagine that like carving rock out of a mountain. Now, you've done this damage to the mountain. This is just a metaphor because we can't actually be damaged, but it feels like we're damaged here, right? We get pretty darn damaged here. It's like carving rock out of a mountain, but now that you've carved out that hole, that hole can now be filled. You see?

Now that there's a cavern that is empty, now, whether in this life through processing it or after this life when the constraints are released, one way or the other, spirit can't help but fully return to the fullness of its being and fully heal and fully process—fully fill that cavern. You see? And so, that is an incredible opportunity. So, that may seem crazy. It's not a process of masochism. It's a process of refinement of being through the integration of experience.

Was that like what you similarly described in your experience as the resting place—like, taking that moment to kind of, after a tough life, go back to a resting space to kind of take a break or maybe heal or just kind of regain your own awareness to what you really are? Yeah, there is great healing that takes place there that I can't speak much about. That resting place, but it is a layer of reality that we can rest in that helps facilitate a healing of the portion of the self. Yes.

So fascinating. There's a part in Robert Monroe's book where he talks about... I guess it's like the genesis of his story as an entity. He talks about AA and BB. I don't know if you've read that book at all. I'm not familiar.

Yeah, not so... It's like his first book talks about AA and BB, and they come, and they stumble upon Earth, and there are those beings or... Yeah, they're beings. Okay, they're not human beings. They're just beings. They stumble upon Earth, and they meet... I don't know if they meet a gatekeeper or something. Somehow, I'm trying to remember the book, and I'm paraphrasing a lot.

Somehow, they get interested in having an experience on Earth, and it's like, as soon as they have that one experience, they forget that they're that being, and they get lost in this, and they keep coming back and coming back and coming back and coming back. Yeah, yeah. So, there's a...

Okay, so we're never truly lost. It's really important to highlight, but if you imagine... Like, a planet is a planet, of course, but if you imagine it like a planet that has gravity, you get close enough to the gravity, and it tends to pull you in. And what that is—all that means is the denseness of form tends to be very stimulating. And so, because it's very stimulating... I don't mean to make it sound like, by the way, the higher realities aren't stimulating. They're ridiculously full of visual and audio and other sensory experiences. I just mean there's a density to the experience on Earth that is very rich and unparalleled.

And so, then, what happens is we get associated into it. That's the point of gravity—is we associate into the form. "I am just a human. I am just a salesman. I am just whatever this thing that we are." And so, then, when we step out of it, when the limitations are released, we still have an association. Like, the limitations may have dropped, but now, "Wow, I'm really in my mind space. I'm really associated with these thought forms."

And so, we tend to come back again to continue to process it. And part of what happens during awakening is we recognize, "You know what? That super dense form stuff doesn't actually satisfy. It doesn't actually make me deeply satisfied. It's not actually what I'm looking for."

And so, I love... There's a teaching that Rupert Spira, the non-duality teacher, has shared where he says something like, "You know, if you begin to awaken, and then you find that you're drawn into some physical thing again, go towards it. Go experience the thing that you feel will bring you the happiness. Go experience it all the way, and eventually—and you're not making this happen—but eventually, you will find it doesn't bring you happiness either. Maybe it's a new activity. Maybe it's a new relationship. Maybe it's a new drug." In the long run, it's not actually satisfying you.

So, I'm just saying that eventually, one way or the other, we end up discovering, "You know what? The world of form is not what we're seeking." And as we make that discovery experientially—I mean, it's in the mind, but it's also like the being learns this, so to speak—that is a reduction of the gravity of the planet.

You know, that's when you come out, and you're like, "Wow, I don't have the same association with that anymore." And that's part of what happens during awakening—as you rediscover who you really are, and you find, "Oh my gosh, the bliss of being is already there. I don't need any of this. I don't need objects. I don't need money. I don't need any of this." I mean, it's okay to use objects and use money and all that good stuff here in the play. You can fully participate in the play. It's just that you know that you're not the play character.

Wow. So, is this really like a dream? I mean, they keep saying that this reality is like a mind, right? Like, and... Is God sleeping, and we're just having... You know, 'cause when I go to sleep at night, I have... I feel like I'm standing on a floor that's solid. I'm... Well, depending upon if I'm lucid dreaming or not—I've only had one of those—but most of the time, I feel like everything's real. So, and this reality in the dream and right now, this feels like very real. So, ultimately, are we just dreaming, and we forgot? Yes, that's the short answer.

Yeah, it's very similar. It's just a different level. You know, like, it's like a fractal. Like, we fall asleep into the human experience, and then, as the human, we fall asleep into a dream experience. It's like fractals of forgetting in a form association. When you wake up, you find, "Oh, all of this was a dream." Now, it doesn't mean it wasn't important. It doesn't mean it wasn't meaningful.

In fact, we've assigned meaning to it. I might love that candle behind you. I love the color. I love what it is. Now, I have an appreciation for the form, the shape, the color, the heat maybe. And now, there's an existence there, even though my true nature transcends all form. You see, I don't have to be a candle. I don't have to experience a candle, but now I know a candle. Now, I can come back to my true nature, and it's like an expansion of all that is.

Is there an alarm clock? Like, is it going to wake us up? Like, when do we wake up from the dream? I guess... Do we become like... What is being lucid in this dream?

Yeah, being lucid in this dream is a move towards full alertness—not making anything up but not settling for thoughts, not settling for the meaning that you've put on the things. Try to look at the things around you and see them with a baby's eyes, for instance. You don't know what it is. It's just a shape.

Just like... Even just do an experiment. Just try, and you'll find how deeply you've associated meaning with everything around you. In fact, "A Course in Miracles" is a work that focuses on tangible exercises to train the self to move back towards alertness and towards who one really is and less... You know, move away from form association.

So, it may sound like an unsatisfactory answer to say we're moving towards a state of full alertness, but that is the direction because thinking is like a form of sleep. Associating with story and feeling and emotion is like a form of sleep. Moving towards full alertness and full... Like, totally objective... Totally, you're not making anything up. Look at your experience. Look at reality. Look at your consciousness itself. That tends to move us in the direction—like we talked about earlier—of who you really are.

And then, in my experience, it's not like then you go turn on the alarm clock. It's more like when you put down the crap, all of a sudden, you just wake up in bed without meaning to because now you put down the dream. Now, you'll fall right back asleep, you know, because the form here is real dense, but it doesn't matter.

Even a glimpse is enough to be like, "Oh my goodness, like, this is real." And that's what happened to me. Like, after a few months, I had this one experience. It was so freaking shocking. It was simple, but I started as a dream, and it was just a dream. And then, in this normal dream, I had this wave was going to come and crush me, and I told myself in the dream, "Okay, let yourself die. Let yourself let go of the physical body."

And then, all of a sudden, I was awake, but my body wasn't awake, and I was in the state of being where it sounded like someone parked a jet engine on either side of my head, and it was so freaking loud, and my whole body was vibrating more violently than I can even describe as possible. It was the most violent vibrations and the most loud sound. It was so loud and so stimulating—like vibrating, you know, so strong of vibration. I was stuck there for maybe 15 seconds, which is a long time when you're tied into a jet engine.

And then, and then my body woke up. I jumped out of bed. I was still the same level of alertness, but now I was in my room, and I was like, "What the hell was that?" Like, it was like... I was sweating. I was scared because it was not subtle. It was like, "Okay, you know, it was real." And so, that was just the very first taste, like, "Okay, there's a bigger picture going on here." You know, and then, so I just kept going down the path to investigate—like, just to be very objective, like, go basically be a scientist. Go look at your own consciousness just very scientifically. Don't make anything up. Just go explore.

Well, I've heard a lot of out-of-body experience books, and that sounds like to me a classical description of someone about to have an out-of-body experience. I mean, so have you had like a traditional... From what... I don't know what traditional is. Yeah, what traditional... Yeah, I've had one where I was walking around my house. So, that's kind of traditional.

In fact, in that experience, I didn't know I was out of body at first. It was so normal, and I was walking down my steps, and the light was just a little bit different, but it was totally normal. I was totally alert, totally lucid. It was a Saturday morning. I was getting up on a Saturday morning, right? And I'm halfway down my steps, and I'm like, "Am I in a body?"

So, I felt the carpet between my toes. I felt the crack in my wall. There's like these cracks and this paneling on my wall going down my steps. I felt the cracks, and I got to the bottom of my steps, and I concluded incorrectly that I was not out of body, and I felt foolish. I said, "I'm the only guy in my city walking around his house wondering if he's out of body."

Like, I felt like an idiot. But see, you have to have that mindset of like you're just always appraising reality in a very objective, open way, you know? But still, the light was just a little bit off, and I'm like, "All right, like, come on. All right, if I'm out of body, I'll walk through the wall." So, I walked through the wall, the front of my house, and I was in my front yard, and the sun was rising, and I was like, "Holy crap."

And as soon as I started thinking—like, I started analyzing—I woke up in my bed, but it was this same level of awareness. It wasn't like I woke up, and my bed was more real. No, I was like in my front yard, and then I was in my bed, and one was a non-physical body, and one was my physical body.

Wow, that's awesome. Have you experienced any more of those at all? I've had experiences that are in higher systems that are more colorful than I can possibly describe. So, I've had a couple of out-of-body experiences, and they say that there's other beings out there doing the same thing essentially—like, just, you know, kind of hanging out or traveling or experiencing. But then, like, there were some that noticed that you're out of body, and you may be a newbie at this, and they kind of mess with you a little bit—like, kind of... I don't know what...

You know, one person said like a clown kept showing up and trying to distract her, and she would go back into her body. Have you experienced anything like that? I have not experienced anything like that, but I'm aware that, like, Tom Campbell talks about that—how we often get fear tests when we first go out of body so we don't get anywhere we're not supposed to, you know? But I haven't really experienced that. I don't consider myself an adept out-of-body experiencer. It happens.

What about fear, though? Like, do you still make decisions today? Like, do you have fear in any of those decisions?

I still have fear. It's a lot different than before. I've processed a lot, but this is a highly constraining experience, so there's a lot of opportunities for fear. So, yeah, I still experience fear. Do you trust... Like, each... Do you trust source enough where your decisions—your decisions that you make—are like, "I feel a pull towards this. I know it's right in my heart. I trust that source or God is going to put me in the direction that I need to go, so I'm going to take that step"?

Like, kind of like Indiana Jones in the movie where he steps off the cliff, right? You know, like, yeah, can you still make those decisions and trust that God's going to show you the way? That's a great question. I'm getting better at that. I've come a long way, but I still have a ways to go just because I have fear, like I said. Sure.

So, I've taken certain steps in my life that were very difficult and took a lot of bravery. I've stepped down from previous jobs. You know, I even just sharing this experience the first time I shared it—it was like that, you know, took some courage because there was a lot of repercussions socially. My wife's parents are conservatively minded, and they have a Christian belief system that doesn't tolerate this kind of thing, so it caused some issues.

So, anyway, I feel like I've become more and more strong in being able to listen to that voice and follow that intuition and see it clearly because, you know, you got to be... If you're not willing to follow it, it's hard to see because the ego is going to obscure it super quick. So, that is something that I work on for sure. I think that's one of the main things that I am developing, yeah, personally.

Beautiful, beautiful. I don't know if I can... I think that's it, man. I think we dropped the mic. I think we're done. Christian, how can people find you? How can they connect? Yeah, so I have a website: awalkinthephysical.com. My book is available to be read for free on the website at the third link down on the book page. It's not about money. I just want to get the message out there. It is available in print, Kindle, and Audible. In the audio copy, I get a lot of emails, but I'm happy to try to respond to emails if anybody would like to reach out. It's awalkinthephysical@gmail.com. I apologize if I can't respond because sometimes I have too many to respond to. But we're all in this together, and I'm happy to help. You know, we're all brothers and sisters, and it's an important message to share. I do post talks that I've participated in on the website, so if anyone's interested, there's a whole bunch of them there. Christian, my brother, thank you for taking the time to hang out and talk about your experience. Brother, thank you, and thanks for your patience. I'm glad to finally be here. Thank you.